Friday, November 8, 2013

Fishbowl #3: Hawthorne's "The Minister's Black Veil"

If you are choosing to participate via comments on our class blog today, a few suggestions I'd like you to keep in mind for today:

  • If you wait to post until 20 minutes into our fishbowl or you post once and are dormant for 15 minutes, that indicates that you're not using your time thoughtfully. If this is because you're a slow typist or perhaps you struggle with the multi-tasking nature of this activity, choose another way to show your understanding . If lack of focus continues to be a problem, you will be asked to hand-write a response to our next fishbowl or to verbally participate only.
  • Use the "reply" button below individual comments to thread discussion.  This method of organization is more effective than responding "to Susie's question..."
  • Remember if you're logged into your account, it displays your name.  Don't feel as though you need to include it in your comment.
  • Biggest constructive criticism from last time:

    • Support your thinking with evidence from the text
    • Contextualize question in specific passages or plot points
    • Here are some examples of posts and questions from last time that were great in this regard.  Please model your questions and responses off of these.
      • Love this question from Lindsey:  "The very first sentences of the story are "Let me call myself, for the present, William Wilson. The fair page now lying before me need not be sullied with my real appellation." This immediately shows the reader the level of self-hatred the narrator has. He is so ashamed of himself that he sees the paper before him as worth more than him and he doesn't want to taint it with his impurity. Throughout the entire story we feel the self-hatred he has. Do you think that this came from his "other person" (Wilson #2) or do you think that he created this other person because of his hatred for himself? (Basically, which came first?) Why do you think so?"
      • And this post from Sarah S. "...one thing that really stood out to me was that Poe used the word "gothic" twice in the story to describe. Once on the first page to describe the steeple and then again on the second page when he talks about the windows. Was this term used as a name of this time period, during? I also noticed the mysterious aspects of this story that are iconic of The Gothics."
      • as well as this post from Bennet: "On the bottom of the last page, Poe said " You have conquered, and I yield. Yet, henceforward art thou also dead - dead to the World, to Heaven and to Hope! In me didst thou exist - and, in my death, see by this image, which is thine own, how utterly thou hast murdered thyself". What was the purpose of using this quote at the very end of the story?"

60 comments:

  1. Why does he hide his sorrows and sins with the veil, rather than dealing with them?

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    1. I think he does what all of us are guilty of doing. We "mask" our sins and try and keep them private so those around us don't judge us. I think he was scared and cowardly and didn't want to make them public in order to deal with them.

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    2. He is probably is afraid of what people will think, of him if they found out. Or his sorrows might be too much for him to handle and he just lives with them.

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    3. I agree with Sarah I believe he hides them because he is an important person in society and has a job that puts him as sort of a role model position. Unlike the towns people being able to go to talk to him about their sins he has no one to talk to and he isn't supposed to sin because he is the role model of the town.

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    4. One comment that was brought up in the inner circle is that the veil might be Hooper actually showing his sins, instead of hiding them. So it could be that Hooper is actually admitting that he has sins, rather than pretending that he doesn't, as many others do. This would explain why he says "I look around me, and, lo! on every visage a Black Veil!" He could think that the only way to improve yourself would be to admit to your shortcomings in the first place.

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    5. I agree with Sarah M. Maybe, instead of hiding his sins, with the veil, he is displaying his 'secret sins'. The townspeople see the veil as terrifying, and many assume that he has some sin. I am sure that he would have foreseen that before he started wearing it. Maybe he was trying to make a point that people may appear normal, but they may have sin. He continues life as he always did, with no difference except the veil.

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  2. How does the ministers position in society affect the way people reacted towards him? How would it be different if he wasn't the minister?

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    1. The minister is respected in his community and holds an important position which creates a different reaction than if he were a regular towns person. It is seen more of a statement in my opinion, even though it is mentioned that is was due to a sin.

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    2. I feel like people would have forced him to remove the veil if he hadnt been a minister.

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    3. I agree with zach, because he is a religious figure people notice him and what he does more.

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    4. Because the veil is looked as a cover up of something bad they think the mister is hiding sins. If he were a normal townsman then there wouldn't have been a very big reaction if any. But because he was the minister he is looked as the role model of the town so he is not supposed to sin. It's because of his social status that he gets this big negative reaction to the veil.

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    5. I agree with Hannah in that he originally had more respect because he was the preacher. He was the center of morality and religion in the town. This gives a chance for the people to believe that he had an alternate agenda and was wearing this black veil for the well-being of the town. If he was a normal person, he definately would have been forced to remove the veil.

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  3. On page three, during the funeral procession, there is a person there who comments, "I had a fancy that the minister and the maiden's spirit were walking hand in hand." Why is this important? Is the deceased girl important herself, is is Hooper and the veil somehow related to death?

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    1. *or is Hooper...
      sorry, spelling

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    2. I definitely think the veil is related to death because in the olden days, women would wear sheer black veils over their faces when they would attend funerals.

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    3. Indeed, but there are also many hints that the veil is related to sin. So does that have to do with this girl at her funeral, or does this effect occur with all dead people?

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  4. In the beginning of the story the story says "children, with bright faces, tripped merrily beside their parents. or mimicked a graver gait, in the conscious dignity of their Sunday clothes." This insinuates that before this incident that the people of the town were joyful and were respectful of Parson Hooper. Once they saw the black veil which covered his face, the automatically judged him and said "'Our Parson has gone mad!'" They were uncomfortable about being spoken to by him. Why do you think that such a small change in life caused such a large difference in others'? Why did this cause people to think differently of Parson Hooper?

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    1. They probably don't trust him as they would have. For his veil is hiding something from the rest of the world. So the people chose not to trust him.

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    2. I think we can relate that to ourselves, too. If we just think of any figure that we greatly respect, and then imagine how we would react if there were some mysterious unexplained change in their appearance, we would wonder about that person. How a person is presented is very important, and there is even a man on page one who says, "He has changed himself into something awful, only by hiding his face."

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  5. I loved how Ally asked about how the plot could have been completely altered if the veil had been placed on a minor character. Could this have perpetuated the situation or made it less serious?

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    1. I think that this would have made the situation less serious, the minister is a big figure in the community and a minor character would not have the same influence or authority over people, making the veil much less daunting. The veil seems to be associated with sin, so if a less religious figure wore a veil it would have a lesser effect.

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    2. I think it would have made the situation less serious, because a normal civilian can be dealt with much easier. The minister is respected and high in their society, so everyone thinks that they cannot ask him what the veil is about.

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    3. I think this would make the situation less serious. Hawthorne chose to have the minister wear the veil because he is such an important person in the community as a religious leader. Because the minister was a religious figure people thought the veil had a godly reason. If say a business person wore the veil then people would not notice the significance of the veil as much.

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    4. I think that it would have made it less serious for if the veil was on a minor character. That character would still suffer like how Mr.Hooper did, however the people in the church and the town could have just ignored him. But with the veil being on such an important person in the town and the story the people are forced to acknowledge him and the veil.

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    5. I agree- I dont think anyone would have payed attention to just anyone in a black veil. He was such a prominent figure- it caused a lot of talk among the people.

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    6. I think it would make the situation less serious because the minister is looked up as the leader of the town and he is supposed to be "perfect". If this was a minor character a lot of people wouldn't even have cared.

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  6. Why does the minister continue with wearing his veil when it causes him so much pain and loneliness?

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    1. I think he thinks he deserves it, that it was his duty to wear his sins out in the open because he had done something wrong. I also think he wanted to make a point to others that coming clean and bringing your sins to the surface to confess is the right thing to do.

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    2. Perhaps he feels that if he lives out his life on Earth in pain and loneliness then when he dies he will spend eternity happily because he chose not to hide his sins from others.

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    3. My interpretation of his endurance of emotional pain continued for he was essentially absorbing the town's sins into himself. By wearing the veil in which the town believed was a means to hide a sin, they forgot about their own sins.

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    4. He was being an example of morality. Despite the reactions of the townspeople, he wanted to make this experience about his beliefs instead of his own happinesses. He wanted to be an example for the rest of the town that perfection is absolutely impossible. Even though he was depressed and alone, he knew that he would be able ignore these judgements and focus on what mattered the most to himself.

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  7. On page 5 in the second paragraph the author describes the sadness deep inside Hooper but then finishes with the sentence, "But still good Mr. Hooper sadly smiled at the pale visages of the worldly throng as he passed by." Do you think the smile was for his own sake, or those around him?

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    1. I believe that it was for those around him. Hooper mentions that the veil is only worldly, as is him smile to the crowd of people, it is temporary and will not last after he passes.

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    2. I think the veil was a symbolic way of Mr. Hooper to show to the people that even though he was a minister, he had sins and sorrows as well. He probably had more than anyone because of his job- he was taking on his sins and sorrows, while others were confiding him with theirs.

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  8. One question that I was only able to begin wondering about until the end is what would have happened if the town were able to accept Mr. Hopper with his veil? Would Mr. Hopper have eventually taken off his veil because the town had metaphorically taken off their veil which was ignorance and hypocrisy?

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    1. I don't know that the town accepted it, but grew accustomed to it. It seems to me that Hooper was in for good when he put that veil on, and on page 4 mentions the vow he made to wear this, signifying that it may not have been his choice to wear the veil.

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    2. That's a very good question. I think if they had accepted it, nothing may have happened because it was his veil. His veil represented his sins. If they would have stopped being ignorant hypocrites their "veils" might have been removed metaphorically but it would not have affected Hooper's inner battle. Everyone has their own veil.

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    3. I think that if the town accepted Mr. Hooper's veil, then a lot of problems could have been avoided. However, the black veil signifies darkness which no one wants to accept a dark preacher; especially because the color black is often associated with negativity and depression. If people had started to interpret the color black differently, could Mr. Hooper have been accepted?

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    4. I think it is very difficult for people to accept that the wear a metaphorical veil just like Mr. Hopper wore a physical veil. I don't think that a person can always be 100% themselves. We will always have at least a small veil of deceit or sin that separate us from others. But if the town was able to take off their veils they would overall become a more connected community.

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    5. The metaphorical veil of the other people in the town is not just a result of the veil that Hooper wears. I think the point of this story is that everybody already had a veil, so it's not just ignorance and hypocrisy. It could be sin in general, (of which hypocrisy is part, yes), which every person has, whether or not they respect Hooper or care about his veil.

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    6. Yes, it is plausible that if the people had learned to accept his appearance that he would have taken off the veil. The town may have learned to be understanding of his choices. Though this is true, it was very unlikely for the people to accept him because they saw him as a highly powerful and respected spiritual leader who had permanently caused pain upon himself. It is natural for humans to assume the worst of someone and this made this impossible.

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  9. On page 2, paragraph one, "Mr. Hooper had the reputation of a good preacher, but not an energetic one: he strove to win his people heavenward by mild, persuasive influences, rather than to drive them thither by the thunders of the Word." In our Puritan unit, the preacher gave the opposite sermons. They were very harsh and didn't sugar coat anything. How could these characteristics of his sermons reflect Mr. Hooper's character. Why was he out of everyone the character who got chosen to be the beholder of the black veil.

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    1. I think Hooper's mild ways really emphasize why the veil was so powerful and influential. Hooper seems like the last person to wear a black veil, and the last person to even sin. He was an important respected figure who was kind and caring to the people.

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  10. Why didn't Hooper ever give a direct response to why he wears the veil? There was so much controversy, but none other than Elizabeth directly questioned Hooper until he was on his deathbed.

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    1. I think he refrained from giving a straight answer because what his veil meant to him was different than what your veil might mean to you. Everyone has their own veil of sins and wrong doings and he didn't want people to think it only represented one specific thing, when it was really a personal symbol for everyone. It could mean whatever someone wanted it to.

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    2. I think he felt as if he told people why he really wore the veil than people would be ashamed of him and I feel like that this was his greatest fear.

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  11. What could the towns people have done differently in reaction to the veil, to change the ending of the story?

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    1. Kim, they could have taken off the veil instead of leaving it on in his death but if they did take off the veil what do you think they would have seen, would his face look the same as before?

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    2. Acceptance of his choice would have changed the ending of the story, if Hooper was not questioned so often publicly and privately he may have been more open to discussion about his reasoning if he was not rejected as much as he was.

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    3. Rachel, I think that his face would be the same for I think that the veil was his form of personal punishment for his sin. What do you think?

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    4. I think that his expression and outlook on life would be different but not his physical appearance.

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  12. Where is the line of "making a point?" Was wearing this infamous black veil worth all of the trouble and confusion?

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    1. Mackenzie, It did cause a lot of trouble for him but it must have been worth it if he was willing to preserve this symbol for so long.

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    2. Maybe the black veil only needed to be important to the minister. There may have been confusion among the community, but the point of wearing the veil only needed to be understood by the minister, because it personally affected him.

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  13. At the end of page six, it tells that the town chose to bury Mr. Hopper without ever uncovering his face. Why do you think that they could all suddenly extinguish their burning desire to find out what underneath? Was it because they had been alerted of their own forms of black veils, and then gained respect for the one who publicly endured the burden all of his life?

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  14. What connections did you make with the story and the song?

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    1. The sacrifices made in order to be faithful to their religions were the connections I made between these two pieces.

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    2. One of the major connections I noticed was the line "looking for a savior beneath these dirty sheets." I thought the sheets could have related to the veil and the savior to the people of the town was Mr. Hooper.

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    3. Both the song and the story had a very depressing tone. When the song says "Every finger in the room is pointing at me," it is like when the minister first meets the people and they begin murmuring about their surprise at his appearance. Both involve judgement of people and cause the narrator or major character to feel pained and embarrassed.

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  15. At the beginning of the 5th page, and the beginning of the 6th page, Hawthorne says "All through life that piece of crape had hung between him and the world: it had separated him from cheerful brotherhood and woman's love, and kept him in that saddest of all prisons, his own heart; and still it lay upon his face, as if to deepen the gloom of his darksome chamber, and shade him from the sunshine of eternity." I took from this that the veil seemed, to the townspeople, almost a living thing. How do you think this veil symbolized Gothic beliefs? Is it a possible doppelganger for something?

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