Tuesday, November 12, 2013

Fishbowl #4: "A Good Man Is Hard to Find"

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  • If you wait to post until 20 minutes into our fishbowl or you post once and are dormant for 15 minutes, that indicates that you're not using your time thoughtfully. If this is because you're a slow typist or perhaps you struggle with the multi-tasking nature of this activity, choose another way to show your understanding . If lack of focus continues to be a problem, you will be asked to hand-write a response to our next fishbowl or to verbally participate only.
  • Use the "reply" button below individual comments to thread discussion.  This method of organization is more effective than responding "to Susie's question..."
  • Keep up the great work with supporting your thinking and contextualizing your questions with specific passages and plot points.  This skill improved tremendously from last time.

108 comments:

  1. Why do you think that the setting was so "bright" compared to the other stories? What effect did or would it have if the setting was dark and gloomy like before?

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    1. I think if the setting was dark or gloomy is would have taken away from the main theme of the story- paranoia, and irony.

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    2. I agree with Hannah. For the setting I think was very important to the plot of the story.

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    3. If the setting was dark and gloomy I think it would have made the story much creepier. Since it was brighter I didn't take everything so seriously and it made the story a lot different than past stories we have read.

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    4. We find in the Southern Gothics this air of hypocritical and ironic behavior and setting. For example, the "Misfit" was incredibly polite (like most southerners) but committing violent acts. There is a kind of uncanny in the Misfit because he has this sweet disposition and "good blood", yet he is a horrid criminal.

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    5. A dark setting would change the mood of the entire story. The beginning started off in a light mood, taking a dark turn, adding onto the irony of The Misfit. I wasn't expecting the turn of events, but if the setting was different, my thinking throughout the story might have been different.

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    6. I think that it was in order to show contrast between morality and reality. The author chose this setting in order to emphasize that a person's personality can be dark and evil in anywhere and for any reason.

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    7. Throughout the story, the grandmother is very fond of finding the "good" in others. Because she was falsely finding good in herself and others, I found that the bright and happy setting represented the false findings of "good", and the true grim scenario represented the true evil in people.

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    8. I think that in general, Southern Gothic takes place during the day while Traditional Gothic takes place during the night. So, I think that it was a very Gothic story, just in different ways. There is more mystery in traditional Gothic, while the corruption is very obvious in Southern Gothic. I think that just because the setting was more "bright," doesn't mean the outcome wasn't horrific. An entire family was killed.

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    9. If this story was dark and gloomy it would have changed the whole "feel" of the story and would have in a way changed the way the reader thinks about the story. If this like the dark Gothic the reader would have figured out on the first page that this was a gloomy book but through this writing style the reader is always guessing what is going to happen.

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  2. What is the relationship we find between the Dark Romantics being a source for the Southern Gothic era?

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    1. I think that in the Southern Gothic era they have the same ideas as to that humans are inherently bad just like the Dark Romantics, yet they have more of good side to them than in any of the other stories. The Misfit was nice to them in the beginning but then killed the family.

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  3. Why do you suppose that the author chose to leave the grandmother nameless? Every other character, even very minor ones, have names, yet one of the main characters does not. What does leaving her nameless add to the story?

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    1. Leaving her nameless made me think she was the main character. Although she didnt have a name, because she was the only one without one, it drew my attention to her more than anyone with a name

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    2. I think it is partially because in the south, relationships are very formal and respectful with your grandparents. Refraining from calling her by her first name continued to make the contrast between how kids are expected to treat their grandma (calling her grandmother, to start) and how they actually treated her. It pointed out their immorality.

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    3. Leaving the Grandmother nameless drew attention toward her rather than away. For in most stories we see that only the main characters have names. But leaving one of the most important without a name. It seemed to me that she was kind of a narrator, or the point of view we are looking from.

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    4. Good question Brady, it may have been to make her seem less important. She played a big role in the story especially when she was talking to The Misfit, but she remained nameless probably because she represented something bigger in the story.

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    5. I think the author is trying to emphasize that her name had no importance in the story. It drew more attention to her actions and how she reacted to others choices. It also meant that there was a possibility that she was any single person alive and that her identity should stay a secret.

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    6. The author actually leaves all of the women nameless including the mother and the wife of Red Sammy. I believe this signifies that Southern representation of a woman singularly being defined by her duty as a wife and to whom she was married.

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    7. I think that leaving her nameless makes the reader focus on her personality more, I also think that it adds more mystery to her.

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    8. Well usually the one that is un-named is the one that they don't want you to get attached to because they will soon be gone, yet the grandmother was the main character and was the one that was around for the longest time before being killed. I think the reason he did this was because they want to create more of a mystery to her, so that she can say more and do more and it will make you think more into the story.

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    9. To me it made me think that this is the main character but in a way let me know that this isn't who I should be necessarily paying attention to, especially in the last scene. It also creates a mystery just like in a lot of the dark romantics because it doesn't tell you anything about this character's background.

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  4. Repeatedly throughout the story there are examples of Bailey being disrespectful to his mother. Also, John Wesley and June Star are continually rude to both their parents, and their grandmother. Do you think the end of this story would be different if this was not the case? In other words, if children respected their elders, would the family have met their awful demise?

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    1. It's possible that they still might have met the same unhappy ending, but if they all respected each other the grandmother might not have brought along the cat and caused the accident.

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    2. I don't think that the children's behavior would have changed the overall outcome of the story. I think that the children being rude and disrespectful allows for you to view the family as a fairly normal family. Kids are crazy and can be rude, and if the kids were perfect and well-behaved it would have changed the air of the family, thus the way you viewed the family as a whole.

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    3. I don't think that the family would have met the same fate if they would have respected each other. Bailey did not want to go find 'the house' in the first place, but the children and grandmother insisted,and not in a respectful way, which eventually led them to meet The Misfit. If the children and grandmother would have respected Bailey and their mother, then they would have kept traveling and possibly never encountered The Misfit.

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    4. The grandmother was supposed to be the good one throughout the story, but her role changed when she lied about the secret panel in the house, ultimately manipulating the family. She continued, not telling anyone when she realized that the house wasn't actually in Georgia. She kept up the facade until the end, trying to save only herself, while others met their end. The entire story she reprimanded the children for their attitudes, when in reality, she needed to be reprimanded as well. Maybe if the grandmother, not the children, had an attitude change, the family would have had a happier ending.

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  5. "'Here this fellow that calls himself The Misfit is aloose from the Federal Pen and headed toward Florida and you read here what it says he did to these people.'" In the story the grandmother is basically the main character and she is the first to become superstitious about the meeting the misfit. How do you think the misfit traveled from being a joke and a rumor to being a serious issue in the story? Why do you think the author chose to increase the seriousness of the issue over time?

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    1. I think that the issue was serious throughout the whole story, but it became more serious as the story went on. The fact that a criminal was on the loose is a serious issue anyway, but once The Misfit actually entered the lives of the main characters in the story, the threat of The Misfit became real. I feel that the author made the issue more intense over time because that was part of the suspense, and the climax of the story was when the main characters met The Misfit.

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    2. In the beginning of the book the Grandmother was the only person who believed that this Misfit was out there and could get them. Obviously the seriousness sky rockets in the climax of the story when the Misfit actually becomes a real danger.

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  6. While the grandmother was talking to the Misfit, she says, "You shouldn't call yourself the Misfit because I know you're a good man at heart." Besides the explanation that the Misfit gives, "Because I can't make what all I done wrong fit what all I gone through in punishment," Why is he a misfit? How does he sway from the normal image of a killer?

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    1. Lucy, He is a misfit because he does not hold up to the social standards of a criminal he is a good person he just keeps doing bad things. Why do you think he is motivated to do bad things? Does this have to do with the idea from the Gothics that all people are born bad?

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    2. The misfit sways from the normal image by being respectful and seems like a person with good character. I think that this is where the Southern Gothic comes in. The "bad person" may have good ethics and act with respect, yet they can still come out and be the one who is evil.

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    3. Rachel, maybe when he was sent to prison, it seemed to say that he was a bad person. I guess he just resigned himself to this. And I think it does relate to the Gothics, because he keeps saying he comes from a good family, and praises his parents, I guess the point is like no matter how good a background they come from, the bad in them can still come out.

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    4. Lucy, I agree. To add on to this topic I think that O'Connor was trying to make us realize that people can go against their stereotypes; good people can be bad and bad people can be good.

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  7. Jumping to the end here- When the grandma exclaims that the misfit is her son, what effect do you think this had on the story? Dont you think it would have been considered a southern Gothic without this realization?

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    1. I don't know that it made a big impact on the story. The grandma was still killed and her claiming that did not make a big difference in the story, also I think it would still be considered a southern Gothic without this revitalization because the comment did not make a huge difference.

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    2. When she said this, I perceived it as a way of realizing her own evil. She saw how the Misfit openly accepted his evil side, and she was then able to see how she had been hiding her own. As her metaphorical son, she almost takes the evil in as her own responsibility.

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    3. I don't think so. For with the dark romantic stories like William Wilson we don't ever find out who the person is really, or what he means toward the main character/main focal point. With the southern Gothics I think it wouldn't be the same without the surprise and realizations.

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    4. I think it just symbolizes the Gothics not necessarily the Southern Gothics. It seems like in Gothic stories there is always a suprising twist in the story in the climax.

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  8. What do you think the Misfit means by the line, "It's no real pleasure in life." Could he have been talking about his own life? Or was he talking about the grandmothers life? Or neither?

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    1. I think he was implying that life isnt pleasureful no matter how you live, good or bad

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    2. I think it became clear at the end of the book that he has had a rough life so I think so many bad things have happened in his life that he doesn't think there can be good.

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    3. I saw that line as a change of heart in The Misfit. He saw killing as revenge, but then realized what he was actually doing. In response to Bobby Lee's comment "Some fun!" he responded with "It's no real pleasure in life." I thought that this was when he realized that there was no true reward in his actions.

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  9. Do you believe that the Misfit believed in God? As he was conversing with the grandmother she continually brings up her faith and the Misfit never disagreed with her. Does this change the way you see him if he is a religious man?

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    1. Though he didn't deny the existence of God directly, he sounded like he doubted it. He somewhat wondered if God really did exist, what was the reason for not aiding him in his own times of need. So he possibly believed in God, but he clearly stated that he didn't want any help with his life and that God had done more wrong than he had. This doesn't exactly change my view of him because he didn't want anything to do with religion and still denied that he had done a lot of wrong.

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  10. Throughout the end of the story, the grandmother kept referring back to religion and how praying would solve everything. She constantly tried to convince The Misfit that he was a good man and he could turn his life around. Do you think the grandmother tried so hard because she was guilty of getting the family in the predicament in the first place?

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    1. No, I don't think that was the reason behind her actions. I think she was more worried about the Misfit's well being than the family's. She had worked her whole life to try and make her son and his kids good people, but it hadn't turned out that way. So I think when she saw the possibility to convince the killer that he could be saved and changed into a good man, she took advantage of it. She wanted everyone possible to be good.

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    2. I believe that the Grandmother wanted to pray as a way to try to reassure herself of her own good. Since religion seemed to relate to goodness for her, she was trying to prove it still existed.

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    3. That's a different was of thinking of it that I hadn't thought of, but now that you mention it, I think it could definitely be true. She was the one who got them into that situation and be feeling that she needed to get them out of it.

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    4. I'm sure that was a part of it. I also think she wanted to save herself though. Even if she hadn't of been the one to get them in this predicament I still think she would be trying this hard to save them because she wants her family to live and she wants to live also.

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    5. I took it as she just wanted him to not kill her not necessarily because this was her fault but it could be that's just not as I read it.

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  11. Do you think the grandma actually believed the misfit was a good man? Or do you think she was using some sort of reverse psychology to talk him out of doing bad?

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    1. She was scared for her life and was trying to save herself and her family.

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    2. I don't think that we can ever come with a truly right answer to that question. For he is her son and she does want him to do good things. But the grandma struck me as a person who is very self centered, and she could have just wanted to save her own neck.

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    3. I don't think she thought he was a good man. I think she was trying to convince him to do good and I also believe that she was trying to convince herself that he was a good man and that she wouldn't be harmed even though deep down she knew something bad was going to happen.

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    4. Hannah,
      It's hard to decide what makes a good person or a bad person. I think that the grandmother thought that the Misfit was a good person that had decided to do bad things, I think that she believed that he had some good in his heart.

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    5. In terms of how the Southern part of this "Southern Gothics" plays in, the grandmother did consider him a "good man" but not in the sense that he was particularly moral or kind. She considered him "good" because he looked as though he had "good blood". We often find in the south that people are satisfied with you if your money is old or if you are of a certain family. He also had good manners. Thus, we find that she loved him and considered him her son due to his good blood and good manners.

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    6. I think that the grandma did believe that the Misfit was a good man. Her personality throughout the short story was painfully optimistic. She was a busy body and she didn't like being left out of anything. If there was any way that the grandma could perform a divine intervention for the Misfit, she would. She tried to do this through questioning his morals and religion. She wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. But, this also could have been to comfort her own self after hearing the gunshot and realizing that her family was getting shot down.

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    7. Rachel I agree with you. For he seemed like a good person, despite that he had broken out of prison. For just the way he talked throughout the story. What do you think makes a person good or bad, is it there actions that define them or their personality?

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    8. She said on page 10, ..."I know you wouldn't shoot a lady! I know you come from nice People! Pray! Jesus, you ought not to shoot a lady..."

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    9. Kim,
      Calling him her son could have also been a cry for help, it is never confirmed whether or not they are related.

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  12. What do you guys think are some Southern Gothic characteristics exhibited during this story? I think the story has much less of a focus on the supernatural aspects of the experience of life, and is similar to the Dark Romantics in the respect that it exemplifies "perpetual human immorality".

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    1. I also saw a religious influence throughout the book that could also be tied to the southern gothic theme of exploring issues of morality.

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  13. On page 10, the Misfit asked, "Does it seem right to you, lady, that one is punished a heap and another ain't punished at all?" This is a question that I feel a lot of people have wondered. It is that question of justice. No matter how hard we try to perfect our court system, there will always be something that isn't seen as "fair" in someones eyes. However, this shouldn't be able to justify killing people. Do you think that this question could justify any of our actions?

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    1. I think this is a question that a number of Southern Gothic and Romantic writers have tried to tackle. However, I believe they are saying there could potentially be justification for acting based on this principle because, I don't know about anyone else, but I did not greatly resent The Misfit during the story, and I liked his personality to some degree. I think O'Connor's intent in doing this is to help us come to the conclusion that the insufficient justice system and a society which rears us with insufficient senses of morality can drive us to do "evil" things.

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    2. This question is definitely a common one, and is often used to justify our own actions to ourselves, but is not the right way to justify our actions. It is common to let what society does affect what we o, but it should be all on an individual basis as for actions and there consequences.

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    3. I think we have to look at other aspects of the story as to why he says this. For instance, the grandmother was a liar and conceited, yet she is given no punishment. I think he is relating this to the inequality of people and how they are treated.

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  14. What is the significance of the Misfit saying,"she would have been a good woman if it had been somebody there to sheet her every minute of her life." Did he realize what she was doing even though she didn't?

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    1. As the inner circle said, this quote means that she would be a good person if she lived life like she was going to die any second. I think it makes the reader wonder about similarities between the Misfit and the Grandmother.

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  15. Did anyone else get the notion at first that the man that approached the family on the dirt road was Red Sam?

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    1. That the Misfit and Red Sam are the same person?

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    2. To a degree, yes I originally thought that the person was Red Sam because the grandmother though that his face was familiar. This being said, she would have clearly remembered him because he had just seen him.

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    3. Zach, yes, that maybe red sam was the misfit, because he was familiar to her and had similar attire on as sam

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  16. What do you believe is the significance of The Misfit's name and explanation for it? Could it possibly serve to illustrate a seemingly Southern Gothic characteristic of writing? that characteristic being, justice is often insufficient or excessive among people which leads us to act immorally because the punishment will not be appropriate for the crime.

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    1. I've noticed that frequently in Southern literature, the person who represented the evil side of the story had a nickname. I think it is a Southern Gothic characteristic that allows you to think about their characteristics that caused this nickname to come about. It is another element of the story.

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    2. I agree with Rebecca, the name given to this character illustrated his characteristics and how he viewed himself in society. I believe he viewed himself as someone who isn't quite accepted and someone who is unique to everyone else.

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    3. It is entirely related to the theme of Southern Gothics. The grandmother indirectly tells the reader that this man is of upright standing and social class. He knows that he had good parents, and he comes from good blood, not common blood. These are the factors that, in the south, should breed a perfect, loyal, southern man. Yet, he is the Misfit because he came from that background and did not turn out right.

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  17. Throughout the story, the definition of good changes. First, the grandmother calls Sam "good" because he was being cheated. Then she calls the Misfit good, in order to not get shot. Finally, the Misfit says that the grandmother might have been good. How is the way the grandmother defines good different from how the Misfit defines good? Did that change the story at all?

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    1. I think the grandmother saw the word "good" as meaning pure, honest, and whole-hearted. The Misfit seemed to understand the meaning to be compliant, and well behaved. This did change the story to some extent, because both people were true to their own definitions. If the Misfit had complied with the grandmother's definition, he would not have done what he did.

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  18. Do you think that the reason the grandma pleaded to not have her family be killed was because in the beginning of the story she says "I wouldn't take my children in any direction with a criminal like that aloose in it. I couldn't answer to mu conscience if I did", or do you think that she just was pleading only for herself so she didn't die?

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    1. As the Misfit says on the last page, "She would have been a good woman if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life" referencing that fact that she was trying to good and save herself as her life was coming to a close. She was not trying to save her family because all of them were already dead, she was just trying to save herself.

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    2. I think that there are two possible reasons. She either was completely selfish because she was only begging to save her own life. Not the lives of her family. Or, I think that she was trying to act nonchalant because she knew it was inevitable, like Erica said, that death was near.

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    3. I think the grandma feels guilty not only that she let her family go the direction of the criminal,but also how she convinced her son to take them to the house she was kind of making up. But she continues to plead after most of her family is dead so I think it is a little bit of both.

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    4. I think that in the beginning she was just saying that so they would go to Tennessee instead of Florida but once in the situation it became true.

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  19. It took until right before the grandmother dies for her to realize that The Misfit was her child. Why is this? What happened in their past to cause the grandmother not to recognize her own child immediately? Why was The Misfit able to recognize her before she recognized him?

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    1. Do we know for sure that the Misfit is her child? If he is he was disguised by his clothing and hat, making it difficult for the grandma to identify him and he wouldn't want to become to close to a victim he had to kill later.

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    2. I believe that to some extent that the Misfit knew that the grandma was his own mother throughout the story. However With the grandmother recognizing her own child, it reminded me of when we went over the uncanny and how they use the familiar and unfamiliar.

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    3. The pieces fit together because we know that the Misfit's father is dead. So, the grandma could be a widow living with her other son. Also, the Misfit must have been the forgotten son and that is why he was so eager to seek revenge on his family.

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    4. I also asked "Why did the Misfit kill innocent people for no reason?" If the family in the story was also the Misfit's family, it would explain his motive for killing the family. However, this still doesn't come close to justifying his actions

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    5. I do not believe that she meant he was her literal son, but a metaphorical one. She saw the similarities between them both, and accepted him and his sins as if they were her own.

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  20. Why do you think that in the story, neither of the parents speak to their children or the grandmother until approximately half way through the story, and are considered good people; while The Misfit who is supposedly a criminal speaks of the wonderful qualities of his parents and shows much more love and respect for them. Do you think this is done to elaborate on the importance of valuing family? Or could it be to show that no matter what your disposition or personality is, we all have the potential to show an evil nature?

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    1. I think that the Misfit mentioned how wonderful his family was in order to show that no matter what the origin or blood of someone they have the capability to make negative choices. The Misfit could have chosen to have good intentions, but he never forgave and was interested in taking a darker route. Even though he may have had the most amazing family, he would not forget all of his bad experiences and chose to take it out on other people.

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  21. One thing that continued to reoccur was nostalgia from multiple characters. The grandmother, for instance, continued to remember how much better things were in the back in her day. What role does this play in the story, or was there even any significance to it?

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    1. I found that this was extremely repetitive too. When the grandmother continually spoke about her life in the past, she refers to her feelings of safety in the past and how caution has clouded her life since then.

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  22. I was curious to see if you found any similarities between the Misfit and the Grandmother? Do you think that the Misfit is really related to the grandmother?

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  23. Was the grandmother a believer that people were inherently bad, or inherently good?

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    1. I think she thought everyone had good and it was their decision whether or not they wanted to show it

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    2. I think in the back of her mind she thought they were inherently bad because almost all humans do... but since she was a Christian she looked beyond her own thoughts and through the Lord found the good inside of him, no matter how many atrocious things he had done.

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    3. I think the grandma sees people as being inherently good, because she keeps on telling the misfit that he is a good man, which could have just been to save herself, but maybe she just thought that he was influenced wrongly, or headed down the wrong path.

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    4. I think that first glance you would say that the grandmother would be a believer that people are inherently good. But when you look closer to the story you see that she says that the characters are good for other reasons then being a good person.

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  24. "Hiram and Bobby Lee returned from the woods and stood over the ditch, looking down at the grandmother who half sat and half lay in a puddle of blood with her legs crossed.... and her face smiling up at the cloudless sky" Why do you think that she was smiling when she died? How could you have a reason to?

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  25. I know this is kind of a weird question, but do you think there is any symbolism behind the fact that The Misfit does not wear a shirt? I only ask because I thought it may serve to represent his "open and ingenuous" nature which almost serves to make him seem more kind than any of the other characters.

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    1. I think it definitely could be. In the way that you said, but also in the way that it is seen as trashy, and disrespectful in some ways. I think it was symbolic of his crazy, violent ways.

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  26. In the beginning of the story why did the grandma have to get her way, arguing for what she wanted to do over what the other 5 where wanting/planning to do?

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  27. Do you think that arrogance is a motif in this story? The grandmother constantly refers to being good and what a moral person she is/tries to be (she even tries to make The Misfit more moral), and yet neither her, nor her family are very moral in nature. This could be seen as demonstrating the hypocrisy and arrogance which their family and many other people exhibit.

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  28. Why did the grandma exaggerate and stretch the truth about the house on the dirt road that she wanted to visit and was the site of their eventual crash and deaths?

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  29. I think The Misfit's comment on the punishment not mattering could refer to the idea of cultural anxieties that we studied because it almost serves to blame the justice system (the culture) for driving people to do the things they do.

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